A Facebook Political Conversation

This is long and it's one of my rare political posts, but read on if you can stand to.

Someone I know posted this:



Without using other's names, here's what came from it:

Man Who Responded: It is sad that people listen to this kind of bigotry. What happened to freedom of religion? Islam didn't attack on 9/11, some radical Muslims did. Did Christianity attack the Oklahoma City building? No, a radical Christian. Using this logic, no Christian churches should be built in OK City!

Woman Who Posted It: You can be as liberal as you want Bill, but the reality of this mosque is that most American's feel the people building the mosque are sending us a message loud and clear. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Great Mosque of Córdoba, any part of this name sound familiar? Maybe you should read the history on this mosque. Sometimes we bend so much for other cultures that we forget to honor ours

Man Again: And I suggest that you read the 11th Article of Faith. I don't see any exceptions. ***For non-LDS readers, this is one of 13 Articles of Faith our church teaches***

Woman Who Posted It: No one is saying they can't build the mosque, that's not the argument, it's the location of where many lost their lives. I'm not in the decision making process so my Article 11 is intact. Some of our temples original locations have been moved due to unfavorable reactions to local residents/communities(i.e. Denver Temple). If we followed Article 11 to the letter, we would have built the temples no matter what anyone thought.

Man Again: Again, Islam didn't attack on 9/11 any more than Christianity bombed the OK City Federal building.

Woman Who Posted It: So does that mean Christian's aren't responsible for the Crusades? Well, if Mormons can move their temples when faced with adversity, why can't the Muslims?

Man Again: The Crusades were sponsored by the Catholic Church, so yes, they are responsible for them. Mormons should be able to build their temples wherever they can legally build them. That building was approved and followed all the laws to get that way.

Woman Who Posted It: Don't you just love Freedom of Speech Bill --- Luv ya!

Then She Posts Again: Okay, so the Catholic Church is responsible for the Crusades, however, all of Christianity (even those killed by the Catholics) has had to bear the discrimination of the Crusades. How often do you hear, "More wars have been caused in the n...ame of christianity". Same with the Mormons, we are judged by the splinter sects of the LDS church who practice poligamy. People's perceptions are a reality, even if it is not true. Thus, Moslems are judged by their extreme Jihad who attacked on 9/ll. Sad, but unfortuntately, true. The mosque being close to the site reminds them of the Moslems who killed their loved ones. It causes an sadness in their hearts. Their loss should be respected.

Man Again: So, if other people were wrong, it is okay for you to be wrong?
Try some extra reading of the "other side":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2010/08/20/VI2010082002893.html?hpid=artslot

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...ntent/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081903292.html

http://daryllang.com/blog/4421

http://www.newser.com/story/98802/stewart-fight-terror-stop-watching-fox.html

After you have read/watched all of them, take some time to think before you react.


And He Posts Again: Oh, and here is the one I wanted to show you, but I couldn't find it before:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/liz-cheneys-keep-america-_n_686697.html


So, at this point, I feel bad for my friend who was just doing what is EVERYONE'S right and posting her opinion. She wasn't trying to incite anything, just say her peace. So I thought I'd respond in a very....non-position taking position. Meh. Here is what I said and the ensuing conversation:

ME (notice how I put my indicator in all caps - because I'm all that....joking): I think it comes down to actions of tolerance. Despite what is often stated about Americans, we show an awful lot of that. Maybe it's someone elses turn. Something awful happened at that location, carried out by extremists, but Islamics,... nonetheless. So why wouldn't the Muslims wanting to build there just say, "Okay, we don't want to offend anyone or upset people who suffered immeasurable losses. We'll build elsewhere in a show of compassion, tolerance and understanding"? People who have thought less of them might change their opinions somewhat and people who think highly of them might think even more highly of them. And a show of tolerance on the other side shines through. I guess I really can see both sides here but as our own LDS faith has done, it's not so tough to give up a spot for the sake of peace, is it? Building there might just set them up for retribution. Why put your worshippers and your building in that position? I just think it would be better for them to move their location.

Man Again: If the Muslims want to change the location, that would be their decision, but we should not expect/demand that they do. They applied for a permit and it was granted.

From their side, they have been experiencing a lot of bigotry and hate tha...t they don't believe they deserve, and this is just another example of how many (most?) Americans are prejudiced against them.

What I find sad is that so many LDS (who should IMHO be on the side of the oppressed) are showing bigotry instead of tolerance.

These kinds of issues are helping to recruit other terrorists because they "prove" that American hate Muslims / Arabs / etc. They are also creating a more dangerous situation for our troops overseas. It used to be that America was the "gold standard" of values, but sadly that is no longer the case.

ME: Not an expectation, just a thought. And no bigotry here. I have extended family in Iran - of Iranian ancestry. My own nephews are Iranian and the Europian melting pot of the other side of their family. And I don't believe MOST Americans... are prejudiced against Muslims. I think you just hear that side because to most of us, it's a bit appalling that some people still think in that way. Bigotry is born of ignorance. Sometimes it's just a matter of helping them see differently. It's been done before.

And let's be honest - it doesn't require a single action on any American's part to create terrorists. It's the garbage they are taught by people who ought to know better. People with "other" agendas.

I think the greater disintegration of America's standing overseas has a lot more to do with our "political" dealings there than anything American citizens are saying here - or ever have said.

Man Again: I didn't say you were bigoted, nor did I say that most Americans are. However, from what Muslims have seen, I'm guessing they believe that most are.

And, of course, to not take sides *is* to take sides. :-( There are many who don't want to... be involved. Not just with this, but with other situations as well.

ME: My error. I mistook your comment: and this is just another example of how many (most?) Americans are prejudiced against them.....as meaning you thought many or most American's are prejudiced. Not a lot of time/room to express ourselves ...fully.

Just so you know, the Muslims I know don't think most American's are prejudiced against them. They think it's politics and extremists. People are people, regardless of their beliefs.

And forgive me if I'm reading things wrong again, but is it just an aside that you say: And, of course, to not take sides *is* to take sides. :-( There are many who don't want to... be involved. Not just with this, but with other situations as well.....Just curious.

Man Again: I am glad that most of the Muslims you know realize that much of the "hatred/bigotry" are politically motivated. I am concerned, however, that Muslims overseas don't have that insight. They see the demonstrations and told that is "proof" ...that Americans are against Islam. IMHO, that is part of the agenda of those who are spreading the flames. Increased conflicts generates increased revenues for the military/industrial complex.

Back in the '60s, there was a saying "To not decide is to decide." While many of us were demonstrating about things like equal rights, etc. those who didn't take sides were (in our opinion) helping the status quo suppress the rights of the people. I did a play on that saying by stating to not take sides is to take sides - they are allowing the status quo resist pressures from activists. It is actually much worse than it was in the 60's. Back then people tried to dismiss the claims, but now they are actively spreading falsehoods about the situation.

See:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/building-a-nation-of-know-nothings/

ME: As far as what Muslims overseas see - we will never be able to show them anything positive because those who control them and have the motivation to insight them to hatred will always make sure they see nothing good. The best advertisement... we have for who and what American's are is our soldiers who treat the 'regular' people in foreign lands with respect and dignity (by regular, I mean those who are not insurgents or terrorists). And oh YES they do. How often, if you look, can you see footage of a soldier talking to Iraqi or Afgan children, giving them candy, passing out soccer balls, helping the injured or just helping people in general? It is there for all to view if they so choose. When you decide to look at nothing but the negative - you will get just want you want.

It has always bothered me when people sight articles by liberal or conservative commentators and use them as fact. What a bunch of bull! Where are the facts! Where is the proof to their allegations. I can tell you they are nowhere because they are opinions, not statements of facts. I mean, come on. Let's take the most uneducated, probably bigoted person in every way - not just against Muslims - and use their statement as an example of how Republicans think. Oh, please! That's like saying a third of Democrats can be described as baby killers because many tend to be pro-abortion. It's simply ridiculous.

And if someone questions something about Obama's character, suck it up! Every president has had to. If they question your citizenship, produce the birth certificate. What's the big deal? Because not doing so starts those very concerns.....what is he trying to hide? What is he up to? If politicians were as good at being honest and forthcoming as they are at lying and hiding their actions from American citizens, we'd have a brave new world on our hands. Politicians actually representing ALL the people. What a concept!

I don't mean to come off brash or rude. I truly don't. But it's clear that you have a different opinon than Lynn and at least a slightly different opinion than my own. It's not about who follows the teachings of the church by more pure of heart or about who understands better what's really going on in the world around us. It's who we are as people - as individuals. Do you show respect and tolerence in your daily life? Do you try to exemplify Christ in your actions? Are you doing the best you can in a world filled with frightening things, knowing full well it is Satan's utmost desire to take us from the teachings we know to be true? Then no big deal if this one issues is upsetting to you. And more power to you if it is not.

Oops - I should have spelled incite, not insight. Ha

Man Again: Very good points.

BTW - Obama has produced his birth certificate, but predictability they still choose to question whether or not it is valid. (I am hoping that is what you are referring to instead of the Arizona immigration laws.)

http://ww...w.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

Unfortunately, the US soldiers didn't start out treating people with respect, and also unfortunately there have been several serious attacks on the wrong targets. Each time something like that happens, it helps to recruit more terrorists.

BTW - one of my favorite singer/songwriters is a Canadian named Bruce Cockburn, who went to Baghdad on a fact-finding mission. He told me that Iraqis liked to look a person in the eye, but the US soldiers all (or mostly all) wear those reflective sunglasses, and it makes them nervous / uncomfortable.

http://www.foei.org/en/who-we-are/focus/cockburn2.html

Have you read "Three Cups of Tea"? It is a great book and gives some good examples of how we can improve the image of the US in Arab countries. It also points out some of our failings as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Cups_of_Tea

No, Lynn and I see things very differently. But it really doesn't matter in the long term. As you can probably tell, I'm a bleeding heart liberal, and when I was Elder's Quorum President, my second counselor was an active member of the Birch John Society. We didn't agree on politics, but we had no problem getting along and working together.
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Just thought I'd post this out there because the last part really says a lot about how I feel. Whatever your beleif, you can only control you. And there is nothing we can do about what terrorist nations are teaching their people.

After posting this, there were a few more back and forths. Here they are:

Woman Who Posted It: Sorry I missed all this until now, I have been busy the last two days planning and cooking all night for a funeral luncheon for a Muslim.

ME: Hahahaha, Lynn! I know you're being serious, but how funny is that at the base of this conversation?

ME Again: So Bill, back to your last response. I was aware he produced his birth certificate and instead, I think the birth certificate issue was because it took so long - not that he never produced it. It made people suspicious. Some people heard... the final outcome and some didn't. Again, it depends on what you're looking for - truth or a way to justify your personal beliefs.

On your friend, Mr. Cockburn, well, if you're out to see the horrors of what American's have done to a foreign country, that's going to be your report. If you want to blame the U.S. for "not doing anything" about the poverty - take a number. Who doesn't want the U.S. to resolve all their issues at our cost so they don't have to. Hate to remind you, but we're talking about an oil rich nation. Where is THEIR money and THEIR leadership helping the homeless and those in need of care? Ah, that's right - they're waiting for the U.S. to strap themselves financially even more to rescue them so their politicians and other leaders can bathe in gold coins. Reminds me of, "Let them eat cake".

But I also want to remind you, a family member of mine lived in Iran, fought in the Iran/Iraq war, and those cities were already damaged by the wars that took place between them and civil unrest. It was already in a shambles in many areas. American's didn't go in and do all that, bombing indiscriminately. Yes, they did bomb and yes, they did some damage and yes, sadly, there were a few mistakes - but that is always the way of war. To blame the entire condition of a country that has continued to go to war with it's neighboring nations over and over again is a little bit naive. And to say: the US soldiers all (or mostly all) wear those reflective sunglasses, and it makes them nervous / uncomfortable... Well, just how far can you bash your fellow Americans for their many imperfections (he without sin cast the first stone). I suppose those soldiers should have immediately acclimated to the blaring heat and sun and not used any kind of protective eyewear??? I suppose you think they do it on purpose - to intentionally make the Iraqi people feel uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong - I like to look a person in the eye, too, but I'm not uncomfortable or intimidated when they have sunglasses on because, well, it's sunny out. Just how many piddly things can there be? Plenty, I'm sure. But that goes both ways.

Last, on Three Cups of Tea: Wonderful!! What a great man to have taken the initiative to reach out and help the people in that country. What a generous, gracious thing to do. And I noticed the focus was schooling girls - in a country that denies women education. Hmmmm, was he making the men there "nervous/uncomfortable"? Maybe. Who knows. His purpose was to go in and do what he thought was right - despite how others may have felt about it. Where is his condemnation? That's right - he doesn't deserve it and neither do our soldiers because they wear shades in that blaring sunlight.

Don't rely on liberal muddle to speak your heart for you. Figure that out for yourself. I could easily match your links with conservative ones, but why would I when what's in my heart actually completely speaks for me.

Good for you putting aside your differing political views in the face of harmony. Now that's what we're all about, right? **And just for the record, a member of the John Birch Society makes me a little uncomfortable - but that's his right, shades or no.**

This conversation continues and, obviously, I can't keep adding our statements on here because he's just not going to stop and I'm getting ticked off about his condescending comments about military people (a protester in the 60's, so we know his views). But I'll add just a bit more.

Man Again: Kerri - I think you are reading more into what Bruce said than he meant. He is usually fair and balanced (really, not like Fox ;^) in his criticism. For example, when some police in a poverty country (don't remember - S. America I think) ...threatened to break all his fingers if he didn't pay them a bribe. What happened in this case was that the cab driver yelled at the police for asking too much. All Bruce had was a $100 bill which he was going to give them, but the cabbie took up a collection from the locals to pay the bribe. Bruce explained that many of the police hadn't been paid in a long time and that is how they supported their families.

The sunglasses issue was an example he told to me. He was there for a week or so and found that out, while US soldiers either never figured it out or didn't care. You can wear non-reflective sunglasses or just take them of when you are talking to people.

Another example he told me during our conversation was that there was a huge pile of explosives and weapons. Each day the pile kept getting smaller, and people would tell the US soldiers but they didn't bother guarding or moving the pile. Eventually everything was gone.

In more than one case, people were at first happy to have the US there, but then when they were mistreated support faded.

Go back and read that article again. I think you will find it more balanced than your first impression. Better yet, show it to your friends with experience in Iraq and see what they think.

For example:
"The US soldiers seemed to be doing their best to be civil and respectful, but they had no idea how to do this. At one point we were caught in the middle of a demonstration of chanting and singing people, and the soldiers yelled "clear the road" but of course nobody responded. So they shouted louder, and started pushing people. They are just not trained to deal with people in socially acceptable terms."

ME: Read it once, read it twice. I'm relatively intelligent and can usually comprehend something the first time around. There are, of course, exceptions. It's late, I'm getting old, I lean right. I really can't even comment on the situation with the police in a South American country - that just seems like a bounce around from the discussion (my ultra-conservative husband says that's a liberal ring around the issue tactic - ;p).

As for the sunglasses - reflective or not, you can't look someone in the eye when they have them on if they have any darkness to them at all. I thought the issue was not being able to look them in the eye. Guess it's having to look at themselves.

Maybe the expolsives and weapons were being depleted by soldiers, not terrorists. Seems pretty unlikely these American soldiers would blow off word that someone was stealing weapons that would be turned against them. Draw a target, eh? Did he talk to the soldiers about it? I doubt it. I'm sure the response is that they wouldn't talk to him. Okay. But I can't buy that they let this stuff disappear knowing full well if that were happening, it could mean their lives. They are not on suicide missions. Some stuff is just logical as to whether or not it's true.

I continue to hear reports from Iraqi's that they are grateful to have the American soldiers there - both in news reports and through the grapevine. Of course, there are always those who oppose the U.S. being anywhere - including our own homeland. That's just the way of the world.

Protesting in the 60's, explaing how ignorant our soldiers are, pretty condemning of our current military presence in the Middle East - sounds like an anti-military person to me. My father served in the Army for 23 years. He fought in Korea and Vietnam. He came home shot in the leg on his last tour. War sucks - but it's a fact of life, a fact of the world. Greed, politics, hatred, bigotry. It's going to happen. Had it not been for our military, Hitler would have killed many, many more Jews. Had it not been for our military, slavery would still exist as it once did (not that it doesn't continue in other countries and even in black markets here - but not as it once did, thank God). If not for our military, our borders would have been overrun long ago by power-hungry dictators or those with enough military power to take us out. You may not like what military people do, but they have served this country with sacrifices the likes of you or I will most likely never know. And they do it for love of country, because it's their job and because they are asked to. These soldiers, many of them young men in their late teens and early 20's, aren't idiots. Your example stating, "they are just not trained to deal with people in socially acceptable terms" is pretty insulting and not very honest. They are trained for these jobs and not just in how to engage in combat. But you go ahead and say whatever about them. And when one lays down his life to protect your family directly, you can tell him you're sorry because if you aren't, you should take a long, hard look at yourself.

The Next Step

I think losing this house after fifteen years of living here has taken me through a short journey of grieving.

At first I felt shock and denial. Maybe there was a way to avoid this, to fix it. We simply couldn't lose this place after all these years, all these memories. I cried every single night in the shower and until I fell asleep, frantically trying to hide it from my daughter to spare her any fear or worry.

After that, the pain and guilt came. We are losing it and it felt as though our memories built here were being torn from my chest. I thought of all the things I would be "leaving" behind. I felt guilty we hadn't done a better job protecting our future, protecting our level of solvency. I felt guilty I was making my daughter leave the only home she had ever known.

Then the anger and bargaining began. How dare they (the mortgage company) not work with us when, until this disaster hit, we'd always been reliable, responsible homeowners. How dare they steal away our home without a backward glance, without trying to help us save it when there is all that stimulus money (OUR tax dollars) for them to pocket. Maybe if we talked to them. Maybe if we reasoned with them.

Next, the depression hit. I felt alone in my sadness, abandoned. All I could think of were the "memories" and how they would be left behind (irrational, I know). I thought of how Rachel's measurements mark one wall over the years, how life would be irretrievable different now. How we would leave this little neighborhood and never come back. Crying was my most frequent action once again.

The upward turn came after that. What a welcome relief. Okay, maybe it wasn't such a bad thing we were going through after all. Maybe a fresh, new start was just what we needed. Maybe letting someone else worry about repairs in a rental wouldn't be so hard to accept. It would open doors in the future for where we live when we retire, what we do.

Now I'm at the functioning level - working through it all. We faced facts and found a new place to live, found boxes (thanks Judy!!), found things we could live with out and made decisions that will make moving better for us. We're actually packing now!

Acceptance and Hope. It is what it is. I look at the future in a new place, a place we will rent, with hope and anticipation, seeking out the positives. We are lucky to remain in our same ward so we don't have to leave our church family. We are lucky to be in the same school district, the same school, even. We are lucky to only be about four blocks further west than we have been for 15 years. We will be all right. This is what the Lord has in store for us and it will be better than what we have had these last couple of years.

Those steps moved through, I now just I want to move past all the packing and then unpacking in our new home. I look forward to settling in and getting into a routine. And everything will be okay. I know it. With a little help from my good friends.......

Moving

It is not an easy thing, this journey of change. It is not without heavy heart, yet also with relief. There is regret and sorrow, excitement and anticipation.

We learned a few days ago we are losing our house after a battle of good faith on our part lasting a year now. We have lived in this house for fifteen years. I carried my daughter in my arms through its door two days after her birth. Her measurements are on the wall beside the front room closet door as she's grown over the years. It was our first owned home together and may be our last - depending on the future. It's where we have watched the world change, our child mature, our marriage wan and strengthen. It is the place we have entered as a refuge from the outside world every day. It was ours.

Tomorrow, our girl gets home from Girl's Camp and we will tell her where her new home will be. She'll spend some time at a good friend's house this next week who had to make a move, though with much more change in her life, just a couple of years ago. She will help her through it. Of course, they are so resilient, these precious spirits we are allowed to borrow from Heavenly Father for a time on this earth. Her faith and courage and inner strength will get her through this (with a little help from her friends).

We will be downsizing by just under 500 square feet. We must sell some furniture, have another yard sale, hope that my brother will store a couple of sentimental items that I'd hoped my daughter could pass on to her own children one day. We will go through books and old movies to sell. There is so much to be considered, so many decisions to be made, some sacrafices. But in the end, we will stay together as a family. We will put our things in our new home and make it our own. In the end, everything will be alright.